Episode 74 of the Get Connected podcast welcomes Nicole Mann, co-founder of SOS ThreeSixty, along with Jaime Lassman, head of lower school at Maumee Valley Country Day School, as the Blackbaud K–12 Advisory Board co-host, to discuss ways that schools can help keep children safe online during distance learning.
Amidst a surge in online predators taking advantage of kids spending more time online due to COVID-19 social distancing, SOS ThreeSixty has published Keeping Your School Community Safe During Distance Learning, a free and practical guide to helping schools and families protect children.
In the podcast, we discuss the recommendations that Nicole has for school administrators, teachers, and parents. Get Connected to this discussion by listening to the podcast above, downloading the episode, or listening on iTunes, Google Play, iHeartRadio, or Spotify.
- NAIS: Prevention and Response: Recommendations for Independent School Leaders from the Independent School Task Force on Educator Sexual Misconduct
- The New York Times: The Internet is Overrun with Images of Child Sexual Abuse. What Went Wrong?
Nicole Mann: The most important thing in all of this really is having consistent safety protocols, and following them, and keeping everybody aligned with this consistency. That's the way that you're going to best protect kids.
Daren Worcester: Greetings, and welcome back to the Blackbaud K–12 Get Connected podcast. I'm Daren Worcester, and today I'm lucky to be joined by Jamie Lassman, head of lower school at Maumee Valley Country Day School. Jamie, welcome to the podcast.
Jaime Lassman: Thank you. It's great to join you on this.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. I'm glad that you did. So you're our advisor co-host for this episode, and we're going to be interviewing Nicole Mann, she's the co-founder of SOS ThreeSixty, an organization focused on helping schools keep children safe, especially online. So it's gonna be a great discussion. I can't wait to bring her in. But this is your first time as our advisor co-host on the podcast, so how about you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and your role at Maumee Valley?
Jaime Lassman: Sure. So as you mentioned, I'm the head of the lower school there. So that means I work with grades one through six. Maumee Valley is a preschool through 12th-grade independent school in Toledo, Ohio. We have just under 600 students. That means in the lower school I work with 184 students, grades one through six.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. And how long have you been on the advisory board?
Jaime Lassman: This is my third year as an advisor on Blackbaud's advisory board, which means that my term will be running up during the summer.
Daren Worcester: So you may officially be off the advisory board, but you're certainly never far away or forgotten. We always bring in our former advisory board members whenever we can. So it's been great having you on the board and lucky to have you on the podcast today. The organization SOS ThreeSixty recently put out a guide for keeping your community safe during distance learning. And that guide came to me through a friend in the marketing community and a friend of Blackbaud K–12, Chuck English, who said it was something that our advisors may want to take a look at. So I sent it to everybody, and you were one of the first people to respond, saying that it looked great. You saw a lot of similarities with things that your school is doing and some good reminders in there to go back and check on again and update. So what were some of the things that impressed you about the guide?
Jaime Lassman: Well, it kind of hit all the right points in terms of being the right length. It wasn't a one-page thing that was too short, but it certainly wasn't 30 pages that took forever to read through. To me, it seemed like the kind of information I could pass along to folks in my school who were in administration or student support. And in some ways, it was information I felt like I could share with teachers, because it covered student safety from a different perspective in terms of thinking about how we can support students when they're learning at home, rather than walking through our campus.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. Have you shared it with others and gotten any feedback internally?
Jaime Lassman: I didn't share the entire PDF. What I did is take pieces of it, and I worked it into my communication with teachers and with other people who work with lower school students. So we talked about safety and a couple of different forums, and I made sure that I included pieces from it. I didn't want to hit everyone with all the information all at once. So what I tried to do is kind of weave it into a couple of different communications throughout the weeks that we took to set up remote learning.
Daren Worcester: I think that makes total sense—what I like about the guide, it is broken out with information specifically for administrators and for teachers and even for parents as well. So not giving everything to everybody, I think completely makes sense. So let's bring in Nicole now and get her feedback on her organization, and the thinking that went into the guide.
Jaime Lassman: Great.
Daren Worcester: Nicole, welcome to the podcast.
Nicole Mann: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Daren Worcester: We're equally excited to have you on. I think this is gonna be a fun discussion. Let's start by having you tell us a little bit about yourself and SOS ThreeSixty.
Nicole Mann: Sure. I grew up in Boston. And I started my career working with at-risk youth in the 90s developing social programs for LGBTQ+ children. Just to kind of create safe spaces for them to get together. After doing that for three years, I went on to do public relations, crisis communications, really tough communication subjects. I traveled all around the world doing that for corporations and organizations, challenging myself to communicate to a wide range of audiences about tough subjects. And I came back after that thinking, I really want to combine my passion for safety, and creating safe spaces for children with communications. And so that's when we created SOS ThreeSixty. I have two children in independent schools, I love schools, and it's just a great way for me to live every day my passion as an advocate for children's safety.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. And just sort of an interest question for me personally, what's the significance of the SOS ThreeSixty name?
Nicole Mann: So SOS stands for Safety of Students. Safety is such a big word. So we really have created this niche, which is misconduct, preventing mainly sexual misconduct against children, and ThreeSixty is kind of a full approach. So a school can do everything that they need to do inside their walls to create that safe space for children to learn and thrive and grow. But as soon as they invite someone to do an after school program there, or they take children on field trips, or they do community service projects where they're interacting with other organizations, they need to be mindful of what those safety precautions are for the outside world as well. So that's why we create that 360-degree approach, where we educate schools and youth-serving organizations about the whole gamut of preventing misconduct against the children in their care.
Jaime Lassman: Nicole, when Daren shared this with me, I really didn't know much about SOS ThreeSixty. What kind of services do you guys offer schools?
Nicole Mann: So we do two main things. The first thing we focus on is hiring. So the first step that a school really needs to do is make sure they understand all the intentions of the people working there, the staff, the teachers, all different levels of individuals that are operating in their school. And administrators are such a wonderful group of people who are really committed to working with kids and providing these enormously helpful education platforms for children, but they're not really great at crime prevention, right? They're not criminologists. And so what we do is we train administrators and hiring committees because a lot of hiring is done by committees with teachers and department heads—we train them on really important questions to ask all of the candidates that are coming into their school.
The other thing that we do within the hiring that's really important is reference checking. A lot of schools feel like reference checking is kind of the final dotted line, the final check before they have somebody coming into their school. A lot of schools just rely on email reference checking, or if they can't get a hold of a reference, they kind of skip that and go on to the next one. But we really believe that reference checking provides so much value and information about a candidate. So we offer that as a service or we train school administrators and how to do that in a really thorough way.
And the second part of our offerings is all about policy development, protocols, and implementation. So before the pandemic, we did a lot of work on field trips, field trip safety, how to choose vendors that are safe, what questions to ask your vendors when you're planning these great international trips. And right now we're doing a lot of work on safety protocols for distance learning. How to check in with your teachers, how to make sure your teachers are safe, your children are safe, all those safety policies and protocols that go into that. And then we also do boundary training and safety protocols on those issues. So when schools have those professional development months in August, usually when the teachers are returning to do a whole bunch of courses, we provide a course as well on the safety aspects that the school needs to take into consideration, and train teachers on those things.
Daren Worcester: That's great. Nicole, if I understood correctly from your website, you do have people involved in your organization that have a law enforcement background. Is that correct?
Nicole Mann: Yeah, we are so lucky. We have two members of our advisory committee who have devoted their entire careers to child protection. The first one retired as the head of internal investigations for the FBI. And she's just an amazing resource. She was also the interim director of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And the second advisory committee member is a gentleman who retired as head of Interpol's crimes against children unit. He was there for three years and he rescued 5,500 children globally from horrible situations.
And then, of course, my co-founder, my husband, Avery, he worked for close to 20 years both at America's Most Wanted the TV show, fighting crime there and then as head of communications for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And we're so lucky because our whole team really is committed to safety and really understands the nuances of how to protect children from bad situations and really just sort of operating in the background and not making it fearful for parents or families, but just creating those really safe environments.
Daren Worcester: So, knowing and hearing you speak about how committed your organization is to child safety, I feel a little bit silly asking my next question, because I think it's pretty obvious. But in this time, where we're all separated with distance learning, and you guys have come out with this guide—what led you to create the guide and think that schools need this right now?
Nicole Mann: That's a great question. So schools overnight—and just listening to your past few podcasts as well and really hearing the challenges and interesting sort of situations that administrators face—they really had to come up with these programs overnight. And they had to get in place their platforms, and they had to work on curriculum, and they didn't really have the bandwidth, or the time or even the expertise to think about safety and what are the dangers to children within these environments.
And there are some really bad dangers, unfortunately. Late last year, the New York Times reported that the internet is overrun with child sexual abuse images. And last year alone, just in one year, media companies like Facebook and Google reported more than 45 million images of child sexual abuse that came across their platforms. So there's really sort of this dark underbelly of the internet that a lot of parents and educators don't really know about.
And so we really sprung to life to create this distance learning guide, just to create some kind of best practices that schools can put together immediately, just to start thinking about and talking about safety, both with their teachers and also with their parents. And we've seen a lot of issues coming across the transom. Lately, there's been just a lot of stuff that's been happening. And so we really think that the most important thing in all of this really is having consistent safety protocols, and following them, and keeping everybody aligned with this consistency. That's the way that you're going to best protect kids because basically what happens is predators really seek out these kinds of intimate, closed environments to access kids. And that's what we're all going through.
I mean, I'm a parent, I have two kids online, on the computer on their devices a lot of the time more than anything else. And so it's just really easy for them to happen into a situation that could be really bad. And we created this distance learning guides to really talk to schools about those issues.
Jaime Lassman: So, Nicole, this guide is has got all sorts of practical information for different types of people. As a lower school division head, working with grades one through six, what advice would you give me in terms of supporting the folks that work with children to keep kids safe online?
Nicole Mann: I think that a lot of times families choose independent schools because they provide such a wonderful community and because of the involvement—I know in my school, I see the head of school just kind of walking through the halls. I'm interacting with the principals all the time. And so what I would recommend is that administrators popping into online classes is a really good way of just keeping track of what's happening with children, what's happening with teachers, supporting teachers—that's something that I would recommend.
Another thing is now is a really great time to have safety briefings as part of your regular staff meetings, and addressing with different classes what's going on. What did they notice? What issues have they had? What technical issues have they had? What's come up? Really reinforcing to your teachers that they should partner with the counseling team if they see something. A lot of families are really stressed, they're dealing with things that they hadn't seen coming. So you really want teachers to feel like they don't have to shoulder that burden with their individual students that they can rely on the counseling staff, you want to remind them of that.
And you also want to check in with families, you want to be sending out information to families about online safety, with really specific recommendations. One of the things that we work with our school clients on is developing those recommendations for the school, in line with the school culture, and to be pushing them out in the language that they're used to receiving information about.
So if you say to your families, for example, be safe online or make sure you know who your child is interacting with online—that's great information, but it's also very vague and families are really stressed and overwhelmed. So they need concrete steps that they feel like they can follow that aren't too scary and that don't add to their workload. So providing them very specific information and some good resources that they can check out online as well, I think is really important right now.
Jaime Lassman: Great, thanks. I guess a similar question, but more on the teacher side of things. What recommendations do you have for teachers? I'm also thinking about—there's that time online, when teachers are working one on one with students and it could be a check-in, it could be the teachers hosting office hours, how do you recommend that I support teachers in terms of keeping kids safe and keeping teachers safe when we're talking about those one-on-one conversations and those check-ins with students?
Nicole Mann: I think one-on-one conversations are really important during this time, but reinforcing to teachers that those conversations should still stay professional, that they should still be talking about the same things they would be talking about in the classroom, not sharing intimate details about the struggles they're personally going through. If they see something or hear about something from a student that's particularly bothersome to go and talk to the counseling staff. You also want to let them know that mandatory reporting laws still apply.
And you want to tell your teachers not to be using—and this sounds so simple, but I've seen it come up a lot of times—not to use your personal email or social media channels to check-in with children. If you can't find a child, if they're not showing up to a particular lesson, you don't want to look for them on Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat or whatever. You really just want to keep that professional relationship. And one way for tracking one-on-ones that I've seen helpful is publicizing a schedule and having students sign up. So it's clear as to who's meeting with the teacher and when they're meeting with the teacher.
Also, you may want to reinforce to your teachers that they should collect data on challenging conversations that they have with students and keep track, keep records, because if anything were to happen, these records including time, date, and subjects discussed are going to be very important. So it's not the teacher having to reach back and think about a conversation that they had that they have their notes right in front of them and they're able to respond to a question. I think just having everything kind of out in the open is going to be really important and helpful.
Jaime Lassman: Great, actually a follow up on that one, just wondering your thoughts around recording some of those sessions with students and with teachers.
Nicole Mann: I know that there have been some data breach issues around the recording of the sessions. And I think it's fine to do an anyways, if that's the policy of the school. It all sort of goes back to what your policies are within the school. So the school and the heads of schools and the principals need to reinforce that the same policies apply online as they do in the real world. So depending on the privacy that you've established with your school, the way your community feels about certain privacy issues, it'll be up to you to determine whether or not that works for your school's culture.
That's the important thing about safety and just keeping children safe, is you have to abide by the culture of the community. You can't sort of throw something in that comes out of nowhere because people won't follow it. It has to be consistent with the policies, practices, and procedures that are already in place.
Daren Worcester: Nicole, I think you've covered a lot of what I was going to ask next. And one thing that Jamie mentioned in the intro that he was really impressed with was how consumable the guide was, and easy to kind of break it up and give it out to different people, whether it be his group of teachers or administrators, etc. I like the nice simple checklist that you had for teachers. And you've covered a lot of the items that were on that, I'm wondering if there's any other advice and checklist items that you can think of for teachers.
Nicole Mann: I think for teachers, just understanding that it's the same culture that you have offline as you do online. And that applies to where you're hosting your call. So don't host your calls in your house where you're showing sort of details of your house that you wouldn't want to share with your children in the real world. You're not going to be inviting your class into your bedroom. So if you need to have your calls in your bedroom, just make sure you're doing it from an angle where they don't see intimate aspects of your life.
The other thing I think that's important to note is you also want to be the only one in the room when you're delivering these teaching sessions. So just as you wouldn't in the real world invite your significant other, your siblings, or your roommates into the classroom without a specific reason for doing so, don't have the milling around your house while you're having these meetings with children or while you're delivering your lessons.
It's the same type of professionalism that you have in your classroom. And I think that that's easy to follow, it's just hard to remember all these things because there's so much going on in everyone's heads. So that's why it's important to kind of lay it all out for people and then meet with people and reinforce it because it's all about consistency.
Daren Worcester: Having this conversation with you, Nicole, I feel like my personal life and my work life are crossing paths here. My wife's a psychologist working with children and families and she's been doing home counseling and a lot of these things that you're talking about, it's what I'm hearing in the house. We've got her set up with—she's actually doing counseling from my youngest son's bedroom just because it's the one spot where it had a plain wall behind her and trying to keep that personal information out. So all the advice that you're giving, I think is spot-on from what I'm hearing through her as well.
The checklist also had don'ts in it, can you elaborate on some of the things that they shouldn't be doing?
Nicole Mann: Now, I know that some listeners might be coming from international schools and the time zones are kind of challenging. But you really want to create an environment where students don't think that they can communicate with you at all hours. So again, referring back to your school policies on that is really important. So for example, if you have a school where everybody is at the school, usually, the policy for communication should be from eight to six.
So even though a teacher might go home and get online later and be grading or whatever, at ten o'clock at night and think, "Oh, I have a question for the student." The policy is usually—don't email the student at ten o'clock at night, because then the student can respond and then you're having a communication with them at an odd time, right. So you really want to—as much as possible—do not create an environment that's different from the classroom.
And I would also recommend, we've seen a lot of strange things happen, parents reaching out to individual teachers, encouraging teachers to have sort of one-on-one communications with their students, or calling their students on their personal devices. So I would say don't do anything as a teacher that feels different or feels that that isn't in the policy. Really remind yourself of what those policies are, liaise with your administrators, liaise with your counseling staff—don't do anything kind of rogue. Really try and stick to what the policies are because, again, it's consistency that's going to get us through this.
Jaime Lassman: Great stuff for teachers. One of the things about this guide that I really appreciated was that it had information for administrators and information for teachers. It also had sample letters that we could send to parents. What are some of the things you'd recommend that parents look out for?
Nicole Mann: So there's some really great resources at netsmartz.org. Those resources gives videos and examples of things that can happen to children online and how to prevent them. This is all about specificity and protecting children. So that's an important resource. Now the problem is, and I'm a parent, as I said, it's very, very tough right now. And sometimes you use the device as a babysitter. And depending on the age of your children, you might have your child go into their room with the device. And there's all these wonderful apps now where children can message each other, and they can be playing for hours in their bedrooms undisturbed talking to their friends.
So what I recommend, though, is for parents—don't just let your children go off into their bedroom and come out an hour later and you won't have any idea who they're talking to. You really want to be asking your children questions about who's online with them. If they are talking to another child, ask them if the other child's parents were also communicating. Did they see them? Were they also online? You want to give your children that autonomy with their devices, I think it's great, but you really want to have open and frank conversations with your children about safety, and really ask them specific questions about the conversations—about the interactions that you're having online.
The other thing that parents really need to look out for is revealing too much online. And we've seen this happen where children are not at school, they're not wearing their uniforms, they're doing yoga classes, they don't know how to position the device. They're revealing too much sort of physically.
But also, they might be revealing too much information about themselves, too, online. So you really want to have conversations with your children about what's appropriate online. And just if you're not there all the time with them, which is very, very challenging. You want to spot check, you want to pop in, you want to see how things are doing. Maybe pop in once a classroom to see—if the child has five classes a day, just pop in once to each of them just to see what's going on.
You want to be aware of what your child is doing. Because the scary thing about predators online is that they masquerade as children as well. And so you also want to know and tell your children to communicate only to people that they know in the real world, and that's why you really want to know who your children are communicating with because you'll see this if you go to these videos at NetSmartz, Instagram and all these other social media apps are great, but what they allow you to do is to have a community of people, and that community then has a community.
And so your child might be interacting with a friend of a friend who they don't know in the real world, but they know online and they think is vetted, because that's a friend of their friend—right? But that person could actually be an adult, and they could have snuck into that friend's world. And so you really want to be knowledgeable and encourage your children to come to you if anything weird happens if they get threatened in any way. You want to have as open a relationship with your children about what they're doing online as you can.
Jaime Lassman: So with that, what I've noticed is a lot of parents—and this is again, I'm working with students in grades one through six—a lot of parents keep reporting to me that their children just kind of missed the social interactions, and they're looking for ways that the kids can connect without having the academics, you know, as a layer to it just time for kids to connect with kids. What are some of the platforms that I can recommend they use? Some folks are telling me that they're using Zoom to set up meetings, but what are some other ways that kids can connect with kids in ways that parents can trust are keeping kids safe?
Nicole Mann: Yeah, I mean, that's such a good question. And unfortunately, it's not about the platform. It's about how the platform is used. You could be on Zoom, you could be face timing, you could be Skyping. We use Microsoft Teams, which is encrypted. There's so many different platforms you can be using.
But it's not really about the platform. It's about having open communication with your children and teaching them those safety lessons, because they could be communicating—I mean, these are really tough and horrible examples, but most children are assaulted by people they know. I mean, I can tell you from my own personal experience, and part of the reason that we started this company is because I'm a victim of educator misconduct myself. In ninth grade, my high school math teacher groomed and assaulted me, and then I had to go through two criminal trials as a child.
The National Association of Independent Schools and the Association of Boarding Schools put out a study in 2018. And the findings of the study is one out of ten children will suffer sexual assault at the hands of an educator. This is in K through 12 education, and this ranges from harassment to rape. So it's not about the platform. I can't stress this enough. It's about the communication and understanding of who is interacting with your children and how they're interacting with your children.
And I know that's a very, very tough message to swallow. Because no one really wants to think that someone that they know someone that they've led into their community has bad intentions, but it's a fact. And the statistics will say it. So it's really understanding how these guys operate, which is what we talk about with our clients, and teaching your parents in your community what they need to do to protect their own children, but not in an overwhelming way, right, because we're all overwhelmed right now.
So that's why it's breaking it down into specific things that they can do that are bite-sized, snackable content that they can easily take into consideration and be like, okay, I can handle that. I know I don't have to be online for the entire class, but I can pop in. I can ask my kid afterward how it went. I can ask them some specific questions, and then I feel like they're in a safe space.
Daren Worcester: Nicole, thank you for all this. This has been tremendous. And I found the sample letter for parents really informative and timely, and just a great reminder. For me, personally, there's a pretty big age gap between our kids, so we've just been assuming that the older child is good. A lot of our energy has been on helping the younger child get to his class stuff, but I read that and I'm not gonna lie, the first thing I did was go down and check-in on my older son to see how he was doing and what he was doing online.
So I think my next question really is for both of you in that you've been giving some great advice on the role that parents have in keeping their children safe online and educating their children. But I'm curious what each of you thinks the school's role in educating children in the dangers of what they could be encountering online is. Nicole, how do you speak to and recommend different things for the schools and Jamie, I'd like to hear your perspective, too. Where do you think the schools belong in that discussion?
Nicole, let's start with you.
Nicole Mann: With loco parentis and schools increasingly being responsible for what happens within their school walls and sort of outside their school walls when children are in school. I think it's a really interesting time for schools to be thinking about that question. Now, we don't know yet how this is going to play out legally, because we're in it right now. As we're seeing a lot of historic sexual assault cases are coming forward from 30 years ago, but with Me Too, and all these other movements, that window is shrinking. And so we see every day I see lots of cases of people being brought to justice because of assaulting children sort of across socio-economic and different types of professions.
So, to answer your question, I think that schools have the responsibility to educate their staff about how to keep children safe, which is how to basically operate safely with children, and continue to educate their staff. And unfortunately, I'm sure a lot of administrators have had experiences with staff members that do sort of violate boundaries. And that they do have to kind of talk to them. And now these people who have violated their boundaries, maybe it's because they don't really understand what the boundaries are for or why they have them or they slipped up. Or maybe it's because they have nefarious reasons. But we're all at home now, unsupervised, interacting.
So I think the school's real responsibility has to educate their staff about this and their teachers, all the different types of staff that interact with children, and then to share that information with what they're doing with parents, which is what sort of the letters that we drafted talk about—encouraging parents to come to the head of school or come to the administrators with questions. If they see something, say something, if they feel something is amiss, ask questions, ask about the safety policies to engage the parents as well. And I think ultimately when you enter a profession where you're dealing with children and interacting with them, I do feel like there's some kind of moral obligation for educating families and children about how to be safe.
So I'm not sure that's a legal obligation, but as much as you can share online resources and information about how to keep children safe online, I think is important.
Jaime Lassman: I agree completely. And you know, one of the best things about technology is that it can connect students to other students, it can connect students to experts, they can connect students to information that's online. I mean, the communication part of technology is fantastic for learning.
But we know that at a very early age, we're opening up a whole lot of the world to our students through devices and through technology. So the school's responsibility, in terms of this, yes, we need to work with our adults in the building, folks that are teachers, folks that are volunteers that are working with students, but also we take digital citizenship pretty seriously. It's part of our curriculum, and it's part of how we make sure that students have the information they need to stay safe online also.
So we start that as early as first grade before the kids learn how to use the devices, they learn how to stay safe, and we repeat that every year. And I kind of look at it as sunscreen—another layer of protection is always helpful, even if the school is doing some work in terms of monitoring, or we're doing some work in terms of filtering, we always make sure that the students are thinking about how to stay safe online also.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you, Nicole. I really do love that sunscreen analogy. Nicole, for schools that want to learn more about your organization and your services, how can they find out more about you and get in contact?
Nicole Mann: They can come to our website, which is SOSthreesixty.com. They can email me at info@SOSthreesixty.com. I'm on Twitter at @nicolemannSOS. And I'd love to hear from schools. I'd love to hear from administrators and teachers who are parents. I love talking about this issue. It's a tough issue. But the best part about it, and the good news is that if you have the policies and protocols in place and you stay consistent, bad stuff happening to kids is totally preventable. It's just like that sunscreen analogy, which is so great, to protect yourself from wrinkles and skin cancer and all kinds of things, sunscreen is a great asset and so is consistent, safe policies.
Daren Worcester: Excellent. Thank you very much, Nicole, Jamie, both of you for joining us today on the podcast—much appreciated. This is such an important conversation to be having and I'm really glad that we can be having it with both of you today. So thanks again for joining the podcast.
Nicole Mann: Thank you.
Jaime Lassman: Yeah, thank you for looping me into it. I really enjoyed being part of this.
Daren Worcester: Great. And for everybody listening, thank you as well. We hope to have you listening again soon. Take care, everyone.
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